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Designing designers with Chris Lee, Asylum Creative (#46)

Photo by Jiajun, SidexSide

Chris Lee (@chrisasylum) is the founder of Asylum Creative, founded in 1999. His client list includes Aesop, Johnie Walker, Sony, Hublot, Harley-Davidson and more.

Notable projects include The Warehouse Hotel, 4fingers and Tangs.

His works can be found around Singapore, Shanghai, Chengdu, Beijing, Paris, Bali, Los Angeles, New York, Abu Dhabi, Tokyo, Venice, Kuala Lumpur and Seoul.

After winning all the awards (D&AD, Red Dot Design Award, Singapore President*s Design Award, Hong Kong Design Award and more), he judges them now (D&AD, Red Dot Design Awards, Golden Pin Design Award, The One Show, Tokyo Type Directors Club and more).

Chris has also founded many businesses and nonprofit which include (but not limited to), Artifactt, Fred Perry (SG, MY, ID), The Design Society, Asylum Shop, Assembly, CA4LA, Ally Social, Chocolate Research Facility and Fifth Ave Shoe Repair.

Chris never went to university.

George Clooney, might or might not, be related to him.

Listen to the podcast on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Overcast, or your favorite podcast platform. You can watch the interview on YouTube here.

Links Mentioned

Connect with Chris Lee:
Website | Instagram

Show Notes

  • 00:00:41 Story behind the painting, “Climbing Mount Koons”
  • 00:03:04 The paradox of success in the world of fine art 
  • 00:04:37 How Chris Lee started out as a designer
  • 00:05:03 Why you can’t accuse a designer of selling out 
  • 00:06:38 The complications of selling art in the modern day
  • 00:07:55 Chris Lee’s affinity for businesses that start A
  • 00:10:03 The projects Chris is proudest of
  • 00:12:54 How design and branding projects are priced
  • 00:16:13 Why branding projects are priced differently now? 
  • 00:17:05 How do you bill for interior design? 
  • 00:17:48 The end of the Golden Age of Creativity
  • 00:19:53 The Age of Conformity
  • 00:21:00 Why will Chris turn down a project?
  • 00:23:11 Chris’s  thoughts on Frolick
  • 00:24:25 From awards to charity projects
  • 00:26:08 Why Chris doesn’t submit to awards anymore
  • 00:27:04 Why awards have lost their prestige
  • 00:28:22 Do awards bring in more clients? 
  • 00:29:55 What work goes into award submissions?
  • 00:31:39 How did Chris pivot, build and position Asylum?
  • 00:33:43 The importance of pricing your design work right
  • 00:35:46 How does Chris price his projects?
  • 00:37:39 Why Asylum won’t take on heritage brand redesigns? 
  • 00:40:16 The experience of creating the National Gallery brand
  • 00:46:27 Process of designing interiors for hotels
  • 00:51:43 Why Asylum doesn’t pitch projects for free?
  • 00:53:00 How Chris structures his business proposals for win-win deals
  • 00:54:44 Offering business advice to clients
  • 00:56:44 How to negotiate a brief to produce a successful design?
  • 00:58:40 How was Asylum formed?
  • 01:03:27 Process of selling a design company
  • 01:07:01  The Asylum shop, newsletter and books
  • 01:09:54 From wild irreverence to serious fun
  • 01:13:38 The development for Asylum’s Instagram
  • 01:14:52 Why every designer should own a business?
  • 01:17:23 Why the chocolate business was the hardest to let go?
  • 01:23:12 How Artifactt at Palais Renaissance was founded
  • 01:27:32 How Chris navigates difficult clients
  • 01:32:40 Anger in the workplace 
  • 01:33:44 How did Chris bring Fred Perry to Singapore?
  • 01:35:14 How did Chris structure his business with Fred Perry?
  • 01:38:26 Why did Chris keep his stores open through Covid?
  • 01:39:09 Managing long and short-term employees
  • 01:41:24 How does profit-sharing work in Asylum?
  • 01:43:23 How does Pentagram differ from Asylum?
  • 01:46:51 The value of Asylum’s company trips 
  • 01:51:20 How Chris motivates and manages his designers 
  • 01:53:57 When to pull the plug and start designing from scratch
  • 01:56:49 How to find peace and letting go of perfection
  • 01:58:46 How Chris Lee approaches fatherhood
  • 02:01:43 Chris Lee on his Wife
  • 02:02:33 What is the worst advice to give anyone?
  • 02:04:02 Chris’s 6-month sabbatical 
  • 02:07:35 How would Chris name the current chapter of his life? 
  • 02:09:24 Thoughts on retirement
  • 02:10:45 What Chris deems as success?
  • 02:13:05 How did Chris develop his mindset?
  • 02:14:22 Chris Lee’s experience with contemplation and a meditation retreat
  • 02:16:25 Why is it important to take a break?
  • 02:17:30 Chris’s insight on pessimists and optimists
  • 02:18:21 Creatives, mental health and Covid
  • 02:20:08 Chris on Jane, his oldest business partner.
  • 02:22:00 Does Chris have a favorite Singaporean brand?
  • 02:23:24 Chris’s favorite wine
  • 02:23:52 Chris’s favorite book
  • 02:25:25 Local design studios that are underrated
  • 02:25:53 Recent purchase under a $100 that has changed Chris’s life
  • 02:27:18 Chris’s advice to his younger self
  • 02:28:03 What does Chris aspire to be?
  • 02:30:27 Important routines and habits
  • 02:30:48 Common misconceptions about Chris and his work
  • 02:32:04 Advice for young designers

Special thanks to Khoo Guo Jie, Calvin Soh, Cherin Tan, Michelle Tan, Edwin Tan, Jason Tong, Yong, Yanda, Justin Zhuang, Weilee Yap and Jane Goh.

Book guilt is unnecessary

In the last book you read, what did you learn?

Is there anything you do differently?

As they say, inspiration without action is entertainment.

More information is hiding.

It’s fine if it’s entertainment, just be sure to enjoy the read.

If you’re powering through (and it’s not for school), another book is waiting for you.

Enjoy your book, skim it, drop it, or use it to make a difference.

Powering through is not required.

Our feelings and civil society

Many people believe the world is flat.

30 years ago, bread was at the bottom of the healthy food pyramid.

If you want to start a fight with your parents, say that bread is terrible for breakfast.

What’s been true is that human beings have emotions and feelings and stories. When we decide on something, we find more stories to support that belief.

It’s fine but we have to make sure our beliefs don’t hurt other people.

A civil society, that works for all of us, where you can have your feelings and stories.

The tradeoff is, there are certain things that we don’t do.

Because if we do them regardless, civil society won’t work. We slide back to shouting matches and nuclear countdown.

As grownups who are aware enough, we ought to be able to say, there’s a difference between our feelings and the way things are.

Where we get into trouble, is when we insist that the way things have to match our feelings and beliefs. And we always start with our feelings.

Yes, you’re entitled to your feelings.

Would you still want to be, if your feelings hurt this civil society that we’ve worked so hard to build?

Asking for your worth

People get skittish when putting a price tag on their work.

At the back of their mind, they are saying, Well I would never pay this much money for this, so why would they pay this much?

Well, fine. But it’s not for you.

You’re the person who made it, but you’re not the person who is going to buy it.

Think of your favourite cafe, it probably doesn’t sell the cheapest coffee. Were they afraid to tell you that they cost more? Why do you go get your coffee there?

You go because it is worth paying extra for. It could be their music taste, the smell of fresh coffee, the beautiful interior, or the welcoming smile.

If you’re an origami expert, the problem is there’s no demand for anyone to pay $10,000 for an Origami Swan. But, if it turns out that you discover that there is a lot of unproductive meeting going on at Apple or Google. And, when the hands are busy, the brain is freed up to be creative. There, you could make a living being an Origami meeting facilitator.

Or consider coaching. Someone in their first startup who has yet to launch their product, he won’t feel comfortable paying you $100/h for your advice. However, the CEO of a billion-dollar company, where one wrong decision can cost millions, she would happily pay more than $10,000/month (example, 1).

Your work is to see the person for who they are, tell a story that resonates and help people feel good about their decision. Why are you worth more than what you are asking for?

If you feel skittish, you probably haven’t understood the people you are trying to serve. What story are people telling themselves?

It’s more about them than it’s about you.

Sorry not sorry

Sorry doesn’t have to mean that you agree and would change the way you do things. Although, it could.

Sorry could mean… stop bothering me.

Sorry could mean… I need to resolve my guilt for losing your money so please accept my apology.

Sorry could mean… you’re annoying me. Please shut up.

Sorry could mean… I want to see what is frustrating for you. Maybe I might be missing something.

Sorry could mean… [fill in the blank] forced me to tell you this, but I don’t really feel like it.

Sorry could mean… that I resonate with your pain and your loss.

Sorry could mean… I want to put aside my ego because I value this relationship. I want to make this work.

Choose the kind of sorry that helps you get to where you want to go. Act accordingly.

The worst case is not deciding what you really want and saying it for the sake of it.

Sorry. No, I’m not sorry. Thank you very much.

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